I'll try to answer the Paths question from my own understanding:

So first of all, the Powers are ultimately not quite personified. They're each a kind of Axe ("Ashe", ~ energy/power) that flows through the world, and They're all descended from Oludumare, the greatest Divine, which is either Monotheistic, Monist, or Pantheistic, depending on various factors. I'm a Pantheist already, so I percieve it Pantheistically, but more Catholic houses than the one I come from take it Monotheistically. I *suspect* the Hindu Monist understanding is probably closest to the mark.

My own understanding is that all forms of Axe are part of the Whole, but the Whole - Oludumare - is too huge for a human mind to grasp, so we don't try to connect directly. We personify Him in stories because it's how we can begin to comprehend the incomprehensible, and also how we can understand how the different forms of Axe interact. The forms of Axe we can begin to understand come down in personified form as the various named Powers. Each of those Powers encompasses countless Paths, which are more specific, more personified, and in some ways more limited aspects of the greater Power.

An individual will have a personal relationship with whichever paths are most pertinent to them, which connect to them. I've heard this explained a few different ways. Ultimately, when somebody says "My Oxun", they're referring to the particular Path of the power called Oxun who talks to them the most, and/or who rides them. This may be their Head Spirit or Parent, or just a Guardian, depending on their relationship with Oxun. This may be a major, commonly known path, or a very personal path that only comes to them, or only to their house. In my experience, part of the point of saying "My" is to acknowledge that two different paths can contradict eachother in preference and intent.

I know a little bit about the Nations and Families and such in Voodoo, but not through the House I am in, and I know others here know far better than I in that area.

The closest thing I know of from our Umbanda House is the Lines - Umbanda is more open to adding in cultural lines from other places than most Orixa traditions, I think on the idea that the other Lines are part of the Ancestors of various peoples, and anybody can be in Umbanda, so any Power may wish to come down. I know ours is not the only Umbanda house that acknowledges the Norse Line, nor the only house to acknowledge an Asian Line through Quan Yin. So in our own House, the Orixa are first, and the Loa are second as peers who are immediate neighbors (because They are also African Powers). The other World Lines are treated like Visiting Dignitaries, on the one hand respected and given every courtesy, on the other hand, When In Rome, eh?

--Ember--

Thanks for your help, Ember. That makes sense to me. I have more questions!

Gatekeeper figures, such as Exu or Legba, I know they are spoken to before contact with other spirits. Does this include spirits of your own ancestors?

I'm interested in looking into this at a later date. I was planning on PMing Gypsy Lantern or Ember and just asking for a decent reading list.

Maybe, as part of this thread, some basic reading material could be listed on cultural-historical aspects, contemporary practice, and stuff on more practical Magical Instruction?

That would be really helpful for myself and others to then look back on, some point down the line and start some research.

Wahh, I don't actually know the answer to this because I contact my Ancestors via Heathen tradition most of the time. I generally feel like Heathenism/Northern Trad is Home, and the Umbanda House is like going to University - now I'm there it'll always be my Alma Mater, I'm learning a lot, and making many many friends, but with few exceptions nothing feels like Family or Home. As such, when I go about contacting my own ancestors, I either use Heathen methods, or say screw it and make up my own methods based on what I understand the specific ancestor I'm trying to contact would want.

That's one of the disadvantages of being Poly-trad. I don't believe I need to call Exu before I call Freya, for example, unless it's the middle of a ceremony otherwise dedicated to the Orixa, and then it's just polite for Her not to come before the doors are officially open. Now, I might call on Exu if I was having trouble reaching Freya, 'cause I know He knows Her, and it's well within His skill set to find powers you're having trouble reaching. But that's different.

I haven't been keeping track of the rule within my House as to whether Exu is called before the Ancestors if that's all you're doing. I know we pay off Exu before any house-wide or public ceremony regardless of what the purpose of the ceremony is and that has always included when we're doing major Ancestor Reverence. But we're usually also calling powers related to Death and Graveyards and Guarding Ancestors at those times.

It certainly couldn't hurt. I should check with Mama...

Also - while we are to call Exu before we call other African powers? That doesn't stop any of Them from visiting *us* when They please. I presume They effectively call on Their own Exu to open the door for Them.

--Ember--

Mardol - ask Gypsy for the reading list. I've been learning almost entirely in person and by doing. I do read a lot, but I don't learn well from non-narrative books unless I also have an interactive option, so I can't evaluate what books or sites would be good for teaching others who don't also have a human teacher in-person to help them sift useful info out.

--Ember--

Gatekeeper figures, such as Exu or Legba, I know they are spoken to before contact with other spirits. Does this include spirits of your own ancestors?

My understanding is that you don't have to do this as your ancestors literally are part of you, so the connection is already very strong.

I have an old reading list I posted on Barbelith a while back. It's too long to post here, so here's the link. More than enough to keep you busy!

DannyL:Gatekeeper figures, such as Exu or Legba, I know they are spoken to before contact with other spirits. Does this include spirits of your own ancestors?

My understanding is that you don't have to do this as your ancestors literally are part of you, so the connection is already very strong.

That makes sense to me, and matches my cumulative understanding, but I hesitate to assert it. I would really hate to insult Exu by saying He's not needed when He is. In my house the solution seems to be that when one is in doubt, it's far easier to pay off Exu for no good reason than it is to try and appease Him when you should have paid Him and didn't!

--Ember--

Yeah, that's not an "offical" understanding as such. I'm not sure how this issue is treated in religious communities in Haiti/Cuba or elsewhere in the disaporia - but it seems to works fine, so far, and I'll keep doing it this way. It would actually seem odd to involve him (for me) because of the personal associations I have with ancestors and the different ones I have with him.

Reading list: I've been favorably disposed towards Kenaz Filan's The Haitian Vodou Handbook: Protocols for Riding with the Lwa, which took me by surprise. (I got a review copy from work.) Despite having a rune-name, he's done his work in creating a historical & social context for Vodou within Haitian history and the diaspora. I believe he was initiated in New York. He makes no bones about how Vodou doesn't quite line up with some of the pagan practices some of us are more familiar with, and how there are some things he wasn't going to share out of respect for his house... and some things he wasn't going to share because some people just don't need to be messing around with them.

There was a great book on Santeria, the author of which just slipped out of my head. Published by the same group that did the Richard Erdoes Native American myths books.

Good on web: Santeria: A Practical Guide to Afro-Caribbean Magic on "Moonweb" (silly name, great site) and Mambo Racine Sans Bout's Vodou pages.

Wow, Danny, quite a list! That extends my already-massive reading list a good deal further. Ember, I wish I had a human instructor to cut through it all. Well, I'm sure I'll end end up living in London sometime in the next five years, so if you cats are still about, I might come a-knockin one moonlit night asking for some mojo.

Mardol - I'm not in London, I'm in California ;)

Grant - yes, I definitely respect Kenaz Filan, but then he's in the friend-of-friend category, and I've spoken with him a few times online, so I consider myself favorably biased. (I'm also fairly well pleased with anyone who finds themselves influenced by both Team Norse and the Afro-Diasporic traditions, which I understand to be true of Kenaz, but I'm not positive about that.)

Mambo Racine gives me pause, though. I've read emails between her and others, and she seems to be the sort who declares that she has the One Right Answer and you can buy it for the low low price of thousands of dollars. On the one hand I respect that many people who needed to be connected with the Loa and had no personal in with a house in Haiti have gotten what they need through Mambo Racine's open invitation, and I get that it's traditional to charge quite a bit, at least in Santo houses, on the other hand she doesn't seem to be well respected by her peers, and she will throw quite a bit of mud at other Mambos who offer services she does not, which does not impress me.

--Ember--

influenced by both Team Norse and the Afro-Diasporic traditions, which I understand to be true of Kenaz, but I'm not positive

Yep, I think there are explicit references to... huh, was it Freya sharing space on an altar with Ezili Freda? Liking some of the same things? I can't recall. Anyway, he's up front about Religion A (vaguely European neopaganism) leading him to Religion B (Vodou) even though they're not the same. Both are rooted in results and in human physiology, so the outer parts overlap.

Hadn't heard that about Mambo Racine. Huh. She does seem to give away a lot of information on the web (at least the version of the site I remember from a few years ago), and gave one bit of very good advice: try setting out a glass for Papa Legba once a week and see what happens.

I don't remember what the search string specifically was, but one day Googling something about Voodoo I actually came across the email history of a list for practitioners that included both Racine and Kenaz. It was a fascinating set of exchanges, and she did not impress me at all.

As I said, I have to allow that she's making it avaialble to people who are called without access to the necessary resources. It seems there are a great many houses descended from her, and not everyone is equally pleased with their lineage having started with her (I caught at least two instances of people who seemed to have gone back to Haiti once they had more connections and got re-initiated so they could claim a preferable lineage, but my interpretation may be a little skewed.)

Anyway, yeah... I figure as long as one takes her "This is the true way" with a grain of salt, and can afford her services relative to their value (so, either rich people who don't need to care so much, or people who care enough that the price is worth it) it's a good place to start?

--Ember--

Actually, that thousands of dollars thing seems to contradict some of what she herself has posted up, so it's a little weird. Not unbelievable, but still. One can never tell, I suppose.

(This tangent is, I suppose, one of the unique things about African Diasporic Traditions. I think there was a time when Catholic clergy would charge for services, and things like weddings still come with a price tag attached. But it seems like in the industrialized West, we're more used to our religions being open source demoware.)

Well, yes and no. She does still charge quite a bit, but perhaps it's not an unusual or unreasonable amount to charge given the services... I mean, I think my University charges a huge amount, but my Dad doesn't seem upset with the price, so maybe my sense of price is skewed? It's hard to compare when other houses frequently don't even post their numbers (because initiation services aren't offered to strangers) so maybe it's always like that once you get involved. I don't know, I'm not in that kind of house. In our house rather than having to pay the Mama who then provides everything for you, you're expected to find and provide materials for yourself according to your own means given parameters, and if you need help finding what you need, you'll receive it.

On the one hand, her own pages always sound very reasonable - I've read a lot of them (and just read that again), and yeah, from that alone I'd never have questioned her. It's always how she interacts with her peers and how others who are actually initiates describe her that bemuses me. In many cases it seems very pot-kettle, if you know what I mean?

The thing that always gets me the most is that she'll malign others without being specific, or malign them for not agreeing with her regarding what's valid or not when something is recognized in many places but not in her own practice, and then three or four other folks come back with far more concrete arguments against her in response that have specific evidence, and demonstrate that she's being hypocritical in her accusations, etc.

But I think ultimately the main complaint I hear and have read about her is that she seems to be open to total strangers to come receive Kanzo, and even maybe go straight to Mambo or Houngan in their first trip out to Haiti without ever being in a house before that point - I guess based on divination.

As I said, I'm wary of her.

--Ember--

I'm not sure where to start.. So I'll do what I always do and talk about Legba, old grandpa.
As far as I understand and teach others, you have to get cool with Legba if you want the other Loa to understand you-- he's the master of language and helps us communicate with the others, kinda like a mercury character, funny and wise and usually having some fun on our behalf. I don't think I got anywhere really till I felt a real Love connection to him, this being my trip. Others get some other Loa first and then out of respect go to Legba.. He might cry--seriously--if you forget about him.

Eshu is similar and totally different to him, he has more paths than any other Orisha, and to even try to really do him justice is far far beyond what I could say..I was taught to talk to him first and pay respects so that he doesn't fuck with you--some Exu you pay to stay away-- Eshu is the total mindfuck and yet you just try to work with him as best as you can.

I just did a talk on Loa at my Oto camp and seem to be attracting students, but I more live to serve and that's how alot of "us" live this religion, its a gift to have them in our lives and makes day to day alot more interesting.. They teach me that there is no finish line, only to walk with them and pay them honor and respect.. I'll try to stay as humble as possible in this thread but I seem to know more than I thought possible; and will say outright its between the person and the spirits.

The ancestors are there for you, I use the prayer I was given during my Egun Initiation and that works pretty well, but I also get awsome results with Baron Samedi, Baron Cemetary and a few others. Witches get alot out of Hecate workings, some nice wine in the Cemetary with her goes a long way.

There's also really really weird shit like Insect Loa, I just had a dream about them last night or rather??
Lets just say I woke up and tried to figure out what was in my dream and using my 3rd eye I saw an Insect spirit that folded into itself like Oragami, back off to some sub dimention or ??
Dream contact is pretty big with this stuff, you know you're on the track when you start going to Haiti or elsewhere and talk with not only Loa or Orisha but with followers you have yet to meet in person, I've had tons of Shango ritual dreams with no effort on my part--meeting Priests and so forth. Dreams show you what you are really contacting it seems..
Or who's attention you are grabbing with your work.

Joshua Chance: Dream contact is pretty big with this stuff, you know you're on the track when you start going to Haiti or elsewhere and talk with not only Loa or Orisha but with followers you have yet to meet in person

Oh, there's precedent for that? That's good to know, because I get it every so often, and it's fairly intense, but I've never known what to make of it.

So is there any particular way you know of for how to find those houses and/or human followers in the waking world once you've met them in dream space?

--Ember--

My lady had a big Voodou dream last night and met some Priest who said we'd meet him in about 3 months, we'll be in Georgia on vacation at the time so hopefully I'll have a cool story to tell later on..
She also dreams of Mama Lola's daughter Maggie--who's totally tough as nails and down to earth-- we both feel she will take some Initations with Maggie at some point; she's met her twice in person.

I personally feel most of the Priests I meet are already in the afterlife but would love to be proved wrong.
God knows any technique I could say about trying to contact these folks might work if I ever had some idea of how to do it--besides just living this religion. I usually dream of Erzuli Freda on a regular basis, but she's been wanting a marriage for awhile and likes to treat me nicely in dreams.. The only real trick is writing these dreams down so they don't fly out of your head.

I knew that shit was on for me when 7 or 8 friends of mine all had dreams where I was Baron Samedi or interchanged with him in their dreams, all on different nights or different weeks and most were not practicing voodoo of any kind--someone even gave me a Black Rooster to "feed" the baron even though I never asked for it. This all happened in Orleans so gotta give the city some props for highlighting the Loa as it is famous for; I love how totally interactive and real its become for me and couldn't imagion my life without them anymore--they are my family now and I'd grateful for it.

If there is a Legba, the Legba and my Legba, how do these three things interact? I've seen people write about their own individual spirit x and a generic spirit x. What's the relationships between these entities?

PrincessIf there is a Legba, the Legba and my Legba, how do these three things interact? I've seen people write about their own individual spirit x and a generic spirit x. What's the relationships between these entities?

My understanding is that its like a Macro Micro thing.. There's the Big Legba that is the root source or Archetype and then there is your own personal legba, that you either own or owns you.

Thinking of it like a power gird, your house doesn't have a generator but it is linked to the power plant that supplies the power in your house-- your power bill is addressed to you and proves to the power plant that you are using their grid and "paying for it". Or small legba is a piece of big Legba that communicates the payments and how you treat power in general..

Big Legba exists in a far away place similar to the idea that you could not fit a power plant inside your house or apartment; then you can say a functioning "house" or Temple is a mini power plant that members are also connected to- each having a smaller Big Legba that oversees things there--yet is still always tapped into the Biggest Legba or the Large power plant.

Also your Legba can "grow" overtime as you continue services and get bigger, same to be said with the Temple Legba and finally the Over LEGBA who is getting all these nice offerings and payments and is happy about it.
I think that's the best way I've ever described it. yah!

As an interested non-practitioner (aside from the odd bit of ancestor-veneration), I have a question concerning the prevalence of animal sacrifice. I understand this is still practiced in Benin, but whether this is in certain traditions there only, or widespread, I don't know. Similarly, I would be interested to learn whether sacrifice is prevalent in ADT groups outside of West Africa.

I'm also curious to know whether people feel that the practice of animal sacrifice could be substituted by the practice of giving offerings (food/drink).

Gef:
I'm also curious to know whether people feel that the practice of animal sacrifice could be substituted by the practice of giving offerings (food/drink).

There isn't a single answer to that question.

As far as I know, yes, animal sacrifice is practiced in Vodoun, Lucumi/Santeria, and I'm pretty sure Candomble. It's done in Ifa in the US. I think the majority of Afro-Diasporic religions do have animal sacrifice for at least their most important ceremonies like initiation, if not for more common ceremonies or spell work.

It is not practiced in the Umbanda house I am in. My understanding is that it is less common in Umbanda in Brazil, if it happens at all, at least in "High Umbanda" houses. I'm not clear on what other "Low Umbanda" houses do about it. I've heard that it's one of the things that the upper classes who brought in the Spiritist half of the Umbanda picture didn't like about Candomble.

Can it be replaced? I think it necessarily depends on what you're trying to accomplish. That kind of stuff doesn't occur in a vacuum, it occurs in the context of a specific house and tradition, where you'd follow the customs of the house you're in.

On the one hand, when a religion includes a lot of poor folks, slaves, and just generally oppressed folks who are obliged to hide what they're doing, as all the Afro-Diasporic traditions have had historically, there's a lot of purely practical doing what you can with whatever you've got. On the other hand, there's also a very strong sense in each tradition that certain things simply must be done a certain way, and it seems that when blood sacrifice is on the list, there's no getting around it in that context. I certainly wouldn't presume to tell another House that their practice of animal sacrifice can be casually discarded in favor of going to the corner store and buying the Spirits beer.

In general I get by okay without it. I still offer meat, and drink, and I wouldn't hesitate to offer blood from a butcher if it were ever requested. I know we've had meat from animals that were killed in a respectful manner by a butcher/farmer who raised it to be sacred. But getting an animal to kill during the ceremony isn't something we do. But that's the context I'm in, my House.

It's often written and said that a practitioner alone, without initiations, cannot do what a properly initiated member of a House would do, and shouldn't try. I hear this most often from Santos, and Haitian Vodouisants, and less from New Orleans-descended Vodouisants, and I think that's telling in many ways. Sometimes I think that's terribly dismissive of the experiences of those to whom the Powers have chosen to "bother" who happen not to have the same resources that such tradition requires. But I can't ignore it entirely.

In this case, I'd say a lone practitioner who does not have any training in the proper and humane handling of live animals and the dispatching thereof should not be trying to make blood sacrifices to the Powers. There's an awful lot one can do without going there, even within the traditions that have animal sacrifice. Even in that context, animal sacrifice is for specific purposes that usually occur primarily in group settings.

But I should let folks answer who actually have direct experience with a House that performs Animal Sacrifice....

--Ember--

Thanks all to the folks in this thread - I'm in my preparatory year for my Headwash, as I've mentioned elsewhere, and this has given me ways to chew on what I know and what I need to learn that are just separate enough from my usual angles that it's proving very, very helpful to me!

I really appreciate it!

--Ember--

It's important to keep in mind that animal sacrifice in African Diasporic traditions tends to take place within - or at least originates from - a rural context where people raise their own livestock and regularly kill animals for food. It's not a black metal 'sacrifice a baby kitten to Satan' sort of thing. It's an offering of food. The Biblical Abel seemingly made such an offering to YHVH, and it was deemed a preferred sacrifice to barrow-boy Cain's gift of fruit and veg.

Certain Lwa DO require this mode of offering for certain kinds of work, and there are instances where Mange Sec isn't going to cut it. However, one of the defining characteristics of the Lwa is their adaptability to the circumstances of their devotees. If their service can be modified to survive through enslavement, then it can adapt itself to an urban environment without too much problem. When I visited Brooklyn a few years back I noticed several livestock suppliers who appeared to cater to the Haitian community's needs in this regard. But that's Brooklyn. It's a much more difficult thing to accomplish in other towns and cities.

The standard workaround tends to be offerings of food. A rare steak, a roast chicken, a leg of lamb, a bowl of curry goat, and so on. It's perhaps not ideal, but it is appreciated. What winds me up the most is when people get squeamish and delicate around the idea of animal sacrifice - but will quite happily tuck into a meat feast pizza covered in assorted scraps of horror flayed from the bones of tormented beasts that suffered appalling conditions in a murder factory their whole lives. What's the most ugly? That, or the Voodoo Priest who raises livestock for food anyway, but dedicates a certain animal to the Divine, lovingly cares for it from birth as a future offering to the Gods, and then humanely sacrifices it in a religious ceremony, later cooking it and sharing it with the community of celebrants?

The latter process seems to entail a deep respect for the life and worth of the animal that is entirely absent from our cultures attitude towards "meat". What I take from this personally is to try and bring some of the spirit of that process into my own interactions with "meat", regardless of whether I'm offering it to the spirits or eating it myself. Central to these mysteries is a very blunt understanding of how life feeds upon life. We generally don't like to look at that, but its a brutal fact of nature red in tooth and claw. We're generally shielded from its harsh realities, so we have this situation where the majority of people eat something they are not prepared to even contemplate killing themselves.

I don't actually eat meat very often, I eat some fish, but I'm probably about 80% vegetarian. When I do occasionally have dealings with meat, I try to do it with mindfulness of what has actually taken place. It's not just a shrink-wrapped commodity, there is a life here. Something lived and was killed in order to provide this. By purchasing it for whatever reason, sole responsibility for that killing falls upon me. If I want to eat it, I have to be OK with that. I have to take on that responsibility, exactly as if I had killed it myself.

I'll always try to purchase meat from animals that have been raised in good conditions, as I don't want to support with my wallet something that I am opposed to, but sometimes if I'm unable to source that in my required timeframe, I actually try to retroactively make sacred the life of an animal that suffered in poor conditions. It's still a life. Just because it suffered doesn't make it foul and unclean. Those little spirits need extra love and care, and dedicating their life and experience as a sacred offering feels like going some small way towards respecting it as life and spirit, as opposed to a walking chicken McNugget or whatever.

One thing that I find Voodoo does generally is to encourage mindfulness of one's condition as a being within nature. The whole animal sacrifice thing - whether you are sacrificing a living chicken or just cooking and sharing a sunday roast - is best understood in this way. When you grasp the basic principle of how life feeds upon life to survive, and how - by purchasing or eating meat - you are not removed from this chain of interaction, just largely shielded and blinkered to it, it really makes you consider how raising and killing livestock yourself would perhaps be a lot more healthy and natural than the way in which most of us receive meat products. This in turn makes you think about animal offerings in very different terms, especially any conditioned ideas about how buying a roasting chicken from the supermarket is somehow nicer or cleaner or more civilised than sacrificing a live chicken to the Gods.

Whatever you are doing, and whatever culture you are doing it in, I'd say it's of primary importance to engage with the reality of what you are offering. If I cook pork chops for one of the Lwa, I try to do so with full mindfulness of the transaction that is taking place, and treat it as a holy mystery of nature. On the occasions when I eat meat myself, I try to maintain that same mindfulness and consider it a holy sacrament, and fully take on board what that means, its importance and its gravity. I think it's a lot healthier approach to the issue of meat, compared to the general glib and unthinking way in which the vast majority of people seem to consume animal produce without really giving any thought to what it is and where it comes from. I find it interesting how stuff like this - mindfulness about really basic aspects of our human existence, some of which our culture may be uncomfortable about acknowledging - can emerge directly out of Voodoo practice. One of the fascinating things about it is how it directs your attention towards these basic processes of life that we participate in every day, whether it's the reality of the food chain, the reality of death and ancestors, the reality of the waters that sustain us, the reality of our own sexuality and its complexity, or whatever else. There is no mystery of life that doesn't find expression within the context of Voodoo and its sister religions.

Gypsy Lantern:What winds me up the most is when people get squeamish and delicate around the idea of animal sacrifice - but will quite happily tuck into a meat feast pizza covered in assorted scraps of horror flayed from the bones of tormented beasts that suffered appalling conditions in a murder factory their whole lives. What's the most ugly? That, or the Voodoo Priest who raises livestock for food anyway, but dedicates a certain animal to the Divine, lovingly cares for it from birth as a future offering to the Gods, and then humanely sacrifices it in a religious ceremony, later cooking it and sharing it with the community of celebrants?

Oh yeah that makes me spit tacks. My stock anecdote regarding this attitude: I once attended an informal magical/pagan moot, and we all ended up in a restaraunt. The topic of African Diasporic religions came up. One of my new companions started holding forth about the evils of animal sacrifice--the cruelty, the horror, the barbarism!--while shovelling beef ravioli in cheese sauce into his gob.

Left that one early and didn't go back.

I mean seriously--unless you are an organic vegan, you walk everywhere in your sisal-rope sandals, and you live in a solar-powered yurt on a commune somewhere--do not even THINK about criticising animal sacrifice. Anyone who has the internet connection and the English to be reading this is basically complicit in animal sacrifice on an epic bloody scale. Countless animals--countless humans--die all the time so we can have the kind of lifestyles taken pretty much for granted in the West. It actually makes me pretty sick when I see internet neopagans holding forth on how EVIL, say, Haitian Vodou is (da poor ickle chooks and billy-goats!) from the comfort of their energy-guzzling homes while Haitian peasants who've never owned so much as a lightbulb are facing environmental devastation thanks to man-made global warming.

Mordant and Gypsy, right on! I'm a vegitarian (probably the world's worst) and some of my friends simply need to shut up. They act as if reading the PETA website once a week absolves you of all the other ethical responsibilities in your life. Ugh, it makes my blood boil.

Anyway, I have more questions. I'm looking into ancestor altars and I've noticed a lot of them have glasses of water on them. I've been told that the water symbolises the water's that the dead come from under, that they are a symbol of clarity and that they are there to absorb negative energies. I've also been told that the pretty effect of light passing through water is pleasing to the spirits.

Would someone involved in ADTs be able to talk about that a little more? I've been ooking at it from a Spiritualist perspective, but info from anywhere would be great.

So far I've got that I need to have water, a white cloth, saltless food and candles. Is there anything else I should know before giving service to my ancestors?

Mordant Carnival:I mean seriously--unless you are an organic vegan, you walk everywhere in your sisal-rope sandals, and you live in a solar-powered yurt on a commune somewhere--do not even THINK about criticising animal sacrifice.

I wouldn't put it quite that way.

Seems to me that it's always fair to criticize gratuitous cruelty, regardless of whether it takes place in an animal sacrifice or on a factory farm, and regardless of whether one's hands are perfectly clean.

Some animal sacrifice is gratuitously cruel -- for example, an idiot torturing and killing a stray cat in a graveyard in an attempt to gain the favor of the deity or devil of his or her choice. Some animal sacrifice is substantially less cruel -- for example, quickly and relatively painlessly killing an animal that was raised humanely, and that is intended to be eaten. And there's a full spectrum in between.

If an animal is killed for religious reasons and then NOT eaten -- even if "offered to the gods," and characterized as a loving gesture of respect to both the animal and the deity -- I see that as problematic, since it appears to involve gratuitous cruelty.

From what GL said above ("the Voodoo Priest who raises livestock for food anyway, but dedicates a certain animal to the Divine, lovingly cares for it from birth as a future offering to the Gods, and then humanely sacrifices it in a religious ceremony, later cooking it and sharing it with the community of celebrants"), that doesn't seem to be the case in Voodoo.

Although, speaking about something a bit closer to home (literally and spiritually), I'm not at all happy about the (rarely practiced, except by some Orthodox Jews) Jewish ritual of kapparot.

From what GL said above ("the Voodoo Priest who raises livestock for food anyway, but dedicates a certain animal to the Divine, lovingly cares for it from birth as a future offering to the Gods, and then humanely sacrifices it in a religious ceremony, later cooking it and sharing it with the community of celebrants"), that doesn't seem to be the case in Voodoo.

Depends. I'll often cook meals specifically for the Lwa, that are placed on their altar and not eaten by me. Sometimes the Lwa eat stuff that I don't really eat, so I'll cook it for them. It's not considered an unnecessary waste of life as the Lwa are thought of as beings that need to eat just as we do. That's me buying some pork chops from Tesco's though, and cooking a dinner to be placed on one of my altars. If an actual pig were sacrificed in Haiti, or wherever, I understand that a portion would likely be placed on the altar for the Gods and the rest eaten by the community of celebrants. Nothing goes to waste. Sometimes I do something similar as a part of ancestor work, I'll cook a sunday roast, some of it will go on the ancestor altar, my partner and I will have a plate of food each (although she's more veggie than me so will skip the chicken), then I'll leave the rest of it outside for the local wildlife to partake of.

And here's a bit of a coincidence:

Via the Wild Hunt, an article in today's (Florida) Sun Sentinel about young Haitian-Americans reconnecting with Vodou.

Princess: That all sounds good for ancestor work. Keep it simple. It's a cumulative practice that deepens over time, so don't expect fireworks overnight.

You are on the right track with the water stuff. That is a very deep mystery though, and best discovered, internalised and understood through practice. Working with some of the Lwa or Orisha related to water will give you a better sense of that, but you don't really have to worry about it. You don't necessarily have to understand the deeper aspects of a practice or component of a service before you begin, as a lot of the time, the understanding will only really emerge out of the practice and without that direct experiential element, you probably won't quite get it.

Gypsy Lantern:Sometimes the Lwa eat stuff that I don't really eat, so I'll cook it for them. It's not considered an unnecessary waste of life as the Lwa are thought of as beings that need to eat just as we do.

While I don't mean to belabor the point, I think there's an interesting issue here.

It's not considered "an unnecessary waste of life" for purely theological reasons -- because of how you view the Loa.

Is that meaningfully different from saying "it isn't an unnecessary waste of life because it makes me happy"? Or "it isn't an unnecessary waste of life because it gives me personal satisfaction"?

And would an atheist/non-theist see a meaningful distinction?

Of course, given the context you described ("[t]hat's me buying some pork chops from Tesco's though, and cooking a dinner to be placed on one of my altars"), I wouldn't see it as any more morally culpable than wasting a bit of food -- ordering that extra pork chop and not eating it.

It depends entirely on whether or not you consider the feeding of deity to have any form of objective validity. if you don't believe anything else is happening in that transaction other than someone wasting a bit of food by placing it uneaten by human beings on an altar for a few days, you are carrying the moral culpability of wasting food occasionally, yes.

In around the world in 80 faiths episode 4 Africa, still available to watch at the main site unfortunately there is a depiction of a modern ATR sacrificing a puppy for what seems no apparent purpose but to please the spirits. While a majority of the sacrifices were animals to be eaten, which i am fine with, i found this just a little disturbing, although it was a small AH! in the whole program which is a fantastic glimpse at the range of modern faiths in africa and well worth watching.

The Episodes are free to watch at the main site just google around the world in 80 faiths, My favourite part was the segment about the Ethiopian Church.

Evan: an article in today's (Florida) Sun Sentinel about young Haitian-Americans reconnecting with Vodou.

I'll have to see if there's a copy floating around here - apparently it was part of a larger feature.

That's my local paper.

The photo gallery that goes with the article is here.

Thank you Gypsy - you went exactly where I couldn't figure out how to go.

It's important to keep in mind that animal sacrifice in African Diasporic traditions tends to take place within - or at least originates from - a rural context where people raise their own livestock and regularly kill animals for food.

Right, and that's a lot of what I mean by context, although I didn't get into that part of it, because I have no direct experience with it and didn't want to generalize too much more. But the same situation occurs in a Heathen context, and I agree with the general philosophy of it - Animal Sacrifice isn't supposed to be about torturing another being, it's supposed to be about honoring the fact that you're taking life, that life feeds on life. Even if you give up animals for food, plants are still alive and must be treated with respect if you want to be able to continue to live.

Personally, I want to learn the skills necessary to be able to raise an animal and sacrifice it humanely, though the former requires land resources I doubt I'll have soon, but I can at least get ahold of animals raised on small, mindful farms. Until I have those skills I feel I have no business trying to be the one to directly take an animal's life for sacred or mundane reasons (what's the difference?) because I'd probably do more harm than good to the animal no matter how much respect I paid.

--Ember--

Now I feel that I'd better read some Peter Singer . . .

Could somebody clarify what the differences are between exoteric and esoteric vodoun in how it is approached and practised and whether they are mutually exclusive traditions or inclusive of each other when it comes to practice. This question comes from listening to David Beth talk on Occult of personality.

Pomba Gira A good collection of info on Pomba Gira with a good list of books for research. Another place Pomba Gira appears is within brujeria, where from what i have researched a flamenco doll can be used to represent her in the traditional red and black dress.

As far as I know, yes, animal sacrifice is practiced in Vodoun, Lucumi/Santeria, and I'm pretty sure Candomble. It's done in Ifa in the US. I think the majority of Afro-Diasporic religions do have animal sacrifice for at least their most important ceremonies like initiation, if not for more common ceremonies or spell work.

It is not practiced in the Umbanda house I am in. My understanding is that it is less common in Umbanda in Brazil, if it happens at all, at least in "High Umbanda" houses.

Yes, Candomble, for sure, and certainly in Santeria, and the sacrificial animal is different from the meat cooked for the feasts.

Animals are never sacrificed in Umbanda to praise the Orix

Quimbanda, more frequently, depending on what is going on.

Quimbanda, more frequently, depending on what is going on.

This does not surprise me, but then my (very loose) understanding is that Quimbanda is more to Candomble as Palo is to Lucumi and Hoodoo is to Voodoo - that is, there is a magical practice and a religious practice which are related, but not the same. I understand that Quimbanda is more closely related to Candomble than to Umbanda despite the similarity in name.

Have I got that about right?

--Ember--

On the subject of water and the ancestor work.

I was taught to put clean water on the Loa alters, daily if possible, and they are "drinking it" the same way they want rum and coffee on an almost daily basis; lots of people make coffee every day for their spirits. To forget to feed or offer drinks is seen as a fo pa, but that's later on.

I thought people might like this story.. So I'm in Bushwich in Brooklyn Ny and get access to a Sunday ritual in a Santeria shop, I know almost no spanish so someone near me tries to help explain things. The spirits come through and possess certain people all sitting at a long table, like an alter and conferance table groove.. Here's the interesting bit. They use small fishbowls repeatedly in the ritual and smash the tops with their hands, pushing the power or Ashe into it or taking it out, they never actually use the water and it stays inside the fishbowls. It seems to help in gaining possession or as a tool I have never seen elsewhere, all that cool santeria shit in Brooklyn is off the hook and everywhere.

Quimbanda is "S

Yeah, I've tended to hear.... interesting... things about Quimbanda. But then I've heard similarly interesting assessments of Palo from a Lucumi/Santeria perspective.

Hoodoo seems to be well accepted within Voodoo as far as I've seen, but that seems to be more of an exception than a rule for the pattern I was trying to suss out.

--Ember--

Could somebody clarify what the differences are between exoteric and esoteric vodoun in how it is approached and practised and whether they are mutually exclusive traditions or inclusive of each other when it comes to practice.

As far as I can tell "Esoteric Vodoun" is more or less a marketing concept that David uses to differentiate the Bertiaux material from Voodoo in its Haitian or New Orleans forms. Nothing wrong with that in itself, except where it by default seems to shoehorn non-Bertiaux Voodoo - and by extension ATDs in general - into this weird and inaccurate category of "Exoteric Vodoun", whatever that's supposed to mean. Working with the Lwa in any capacity can be pretty fucking esoteric, as anyone who has done so for any length of time will likely report, so it's at best misleading.

It's a little like if I were to take a few verses from the Quran, splice them with the Great Old Ones, cottaging, and the mystic chakras of the penis, and started referring to that as "Esoteric Islam" - with the implication that the religion practiced by millions up until that point should now be referred to as "Exoteric Islam".

There is something a bit pejorative about having your practice suddenly labelled the exoteric form of something. It implies that "esoteric Voudon" is the more refined and spiritual form, compared to Voodoo in general, which is presumably just black people jumping around in the dirt sacrificing chickens or something. I'm sure he doesn't mean it that way, but that is how this rather contrived esoteric/exoteric divide does tend to come across if you are a practitioner of non-Bertiaux Voodoo.

Hoodoo seems to be well accepted within Voodoo as far as I've seen

I wouldn't really pair Voodoo and hoodoo, in the way I might pair Lukumi and Palo, or Candomble and Quimbanda. In the latter groupings, you have the religion and the morally ambiguous witchcraft of a particular country. Whereas "hoodoo" is generally just used as a catch-all term for the folk magic of the Southern US states, and doesn't exist in that same sort of dichotomy with Voodoo as is sometimes found in the other groupings. A better parallel in Haiti might be the Asson lineages, and the more ambiguous Bokor sorcerers. Hoodoo is really its own separate thing, originating out of a different set of circumstances.

I would be very wary of buying into that straight-up good/evil, Lukumi/Palo, Candomble/Quimbanda, Houngan/Bokor way of looking at it though. While it's probably fair to say that some dubious characters do tend to gravitate to things like Palo and Quimbanda, the more mainstream religions of Vodou and Santeria can also be fairly rife with dodgy docs and unscrupulous or sinister individuals. People are just people everywhere, and should be judged according to the quality of their individual actions and behaviour, not by what tradition they happen to belong to.

Re: the Gatekeeper and ancestors...

Big difference between original African paths (incl. Candomble in this def.) and other Diaspora paths is that Eguns (ancestors) are not tolerated at giras for Orishas in the Nac