I've been wearing ties to work since... since the weather got cold here last October or November. Partially based on Gypsy saying something about dressing nicer than you have to being a powerful situationist act, partially based on following Put This On and partially based on the fact that I have a hoard of ties going back to my mid-80s Catholic school days.

I keep meaning to write an essay in defense of the skinny tie, but something always comes up.

Surely the skinny tie doesn't need any defense? Not too skinny, mind you. No wider than 2 inches, no thinner than 1.5 inches. If it's a knitted tie it can go to 2.5 inches. Anything else is abhorrent. 

@grant, that blog is exceptional. The perfect mix of fascinating and catty. I love it.

Start with a skinny tie and before you know it you'll want to add a keyboard pattern.  And then you're lost.

Had to wear a tie to work for years, then moved to San Francisco and Silicon Valley during the tech boom.  Haven't worn one since, except for court and very special occasions.

Also find the damned things uncomfortable.

This thread makes me remember a meditation with Oxun (possibly automatic writing, I don't remember) that I posted to my journal a while back wherin She was helping me understand why other people care so damned much about how I look, and what I can do with that without compromising either my ethics or my well-being.

Would that be of interest here? I can dig it out and quote or fully post it here...

--Ember--

I'd be interested.

Start with a skinny tie and before you know it you'll want to add a keyboard pattern.  And then you're lost

Oshun is all over that sort of thing. Glamours and decorative arts are a huge part of her mystery and sorcery. 

Gypsy Lantern said: Oshun is all over that sort of thing. Glamours and decorative arts are a huge part of her mystery and sorcery.

Absolutely. It was very clear to me why such came from Her. It was, perhaps, less obvious why such came to me, except perhaps simply that I need the help!

Mind you, I do have a sense of style, but I'm the sort of person who has a lot of trouble with dressing in "not-me" ways unless I'm in a context where I'm clearly not-me for a reason I'm ok with, like a ritual, theatre, or roleplay, etc.

I'll dig it up. BRB.

--Ember--

Dream Conversation: Oxun and "Beauty"
2009-04-22

I was in that half-dreaming state where I'm aware both of my physical environment and several layers of dream on top of that. I don't know who started it, but I started hearing the made-safe explanation of what Oxun teaches, in Her own voice. Here I am attempting to tap back into the stream and see how much of it I can still get:
------------------------------
I help people learn how to love themselves, and how to feel good about what they bring to the world. I teach people about beauty, yes.

But more to the point: When you go about in the world, how you look will always affect how people treat you. What I teach people is how to use this simple reality to their own advantage as much as possible. You don't have to be beautiful all the time, but if you are not conscious of your appearance, you are not taking responsibility for, control over, how others see you and treat you.

On a basic level, almost everyone comes to realize how they are treated according to how they look by default. Most people learn at least a few tricks they can use to manipulate people for their own advantage in the most immediate sense, based on using how they appear to others. Little girls recognize that they can wrap big men around their fingers to get what they want by emphasizing just how adorable they are. Big guys recognize that they can intimidate people. People who don't stand out realize they won't be noticed and can therefore get away with certain things. This is true also for those who look particularly innocent regardless of what they have done.

These tricks are natural advantages of their appearance. But how many people use the positive advantages instead of only the negative? Well, almost everyone in society, actually. Think about it - everyone learns how to dress and keep their hair and body according to the culture surrounding them as they are growing up. Their fashion sense tends to fit somewhere within that range. They thereby identify themselves as belonging where they are. It is few who step entirely outside this range. This is far more noticeable in a tribal culture that has very specific rules about what to wear. Western culture gives a lot of wiggle room, but if you took your fashion sense out of National Geographic, do you think you wouldn't stand out as "Other"?

The real skill is not only using the tricks that come naturally to how you already look, thereby limiting yourself to only the stereotypes and roles at your disposal from the outside in, but to learn and understand the appearances behind the tricks beyond what is given to you. Anyone who knows how to dress to get a job has figured at least a little of this out. Honestly, who do you want deciding which role you fit into, how to treat you based on how you look? You? Or a bunch of strangers?

The thing to recognize is that you can't control their behavior. You can only control what you present to them. Their behavior is a natural response to that. You can let that control you, or you can recognize it for the process it is, and use it to your own advantage.
------------------------------


I can't help but notice that this seems to assume that how others respond, what roles there are, what appearances go with them, are unchangeable. When I bring this up, in the most immediate sense I get shooshed. What came after that was layered.

First of all, the idea of changing the system instead of meeting it on its own terms to individual advantage is more advanced and requires far more consideration and cooperation than an individual who is simply learning how to make choices about their appearance on any given morning.

Second of all, activism to change society, though useful, and even needful, is apparently not the purview of the particular Oxun I was talking to. I basically got "Yes, of course, but that's not my territory." and "If you learn these skills first, dear, you'll have them at your disposal when you want to go changing the world."

Which, I have to admit, is a lot of what Politicians do.

--Ember--

Hmm, I think I've absorbed some ideas since then that I've mentally tabbed onto this original conversation, since there are ideas not presented here. This feels too basic... I hope it's still useful.

--Ember--

That's awesome. Ancient magic that stuff, isn't it. 

I can't believe I just had an urge to take pictures of my ties to put them on the internet. Whoah. 

I still have anti-skinny tie prejudice. I suppose the only way they become acceptable is if one uses it as a key to the whole mod ensemble. Fashion for men in the UK is weird, it's almost not the done thing, which on one hand is quite liberating (from the grasping claws of hideous male beauty salespeople, who want me to moisturise, get a fake tan, eyebrow tints, and get my "back, sack and crack"waxed) but on the other a little disappointing. I find it much easier to be a music nerd than a clothes nerd.

Immensely sexist as well, when one gets into the whole double standard applied to women. I greatly admired a gay female lecturer I had a University, who had chosen not to feminise herself in any way at all - androgynous clothes, no make up, no hair colouring or fancy cuts. Her conscious rejection of all this was a really powerful statement in itself. An old meditation I encountered in some old Amookos papers was to meditate on being the opposite gender in any given situation. Just walking down the street with this in mind really brings out It really bought out for me men are free from this pressure in a way that many women aren't.

Fab piece of writing btw, Ember.

That's a great piece! Thank you Ember.

I took one of my older sibs to a high end salon in Boston yesterday as a belated birthday gift. While they were doing a hair consult and cut I received instruction on make up for a professional femme presentation and evening tweaks.

Growing up it was half being rejected as not fitting into the very limiting single category of young girl femme and half rejecting the limitations I perceived it carried that kept me on the butch end of the spectrum. The punk and goth of my teenage years didn't require skill to pull off the look, only the slapdash sub culture signifers and a willingness to beat the crap out of people who wanted a gender debate.

The tool kit of various femme presentations seemed as mystifying and alien as trying to understand what kind of power was available to those using it. I saw it at work on people and lost many potential hetero males' interest to those using it. In the fetish culture of my college years the form that came more easily to me received more attention, less about make up and more about aggression and transgression.

Now the more standard femme presentation is of interest to me less for sexual signals to potential partners, but as a signifer of skill navigating adult culture.

My good friend an ultra successful lush femme friend manages the salon in Boston and recommended the make up instructor to me specificly based on this desire to learn how to construct that image. Sure enough, my teacher was very open minded and all about explaining the reasons for the various products. There is a mind boggling assortment of options so having an expert pull out the few best matches without overwhelming me kicked ass. We used the terms of a 2D painter to communicate desired effects and brush techniques.

What I ended up with was a clean even complexion that was obviously made up and subtle but clearly painted eyes and shined lips. It was very much the adult face one would expect culturally to see on a business woman in my corporate work space. Then the instructor added darker colors to create that dramatic look expected at evening events.

It was as foreign as being painted to look like a tiger and yet as familar as every magazine, tv show, movie, and many of the faces I see every day in daily life. It wasn't better than my normal non 'done' face but it clearly stated something very different about my willingness to participate. It clearly would combine with my Scully pro femme business suits into some sort of power armor of authority in a corporate work place.

The temporary and changing nature of it stood in sharp contrast to my tattoos, which strangely enough, are a very different kind of signifer of femme in my collectors' subculture. Combining the skilled application of make up expected of business women and the skin art creates an unexpected combination I quite like. But then I've always loved the crisp elegance of a woman in a tailored business suit. Now it's just difficult to find suits that fit.

What Ember wrote above dovetails my experience very well. It's about weilding options of presentation that convey different kinds of power. For me the path isn't wrapping big men around my little finger, but making it clear I am a competent equal able to utilize social norms while subverting them to fit my self expression.

Yeah, XK, that's definitely the kind of stuff we were talking about, thank you!

XK said: For me the path isn't wrapping big men around my little finger, but making it clear I am a competent equal able to utilize social norms while subverting them to fit my self expression.

Just in case it wasn't clear: Those were only two tiny, and obvious-to-me examples She was using. There are countless other uses, and not just for gender presentation. She was also talking about what non-standard presentation can do.

What you're telling me, though, makes me realize that I don't use what I learned in Stagecraft enough in this area. At least half of what I know about makeup came from learning how to do it for theatre, but that seems to contribute to my general attitude/fear that "Makeup is for being not-me" which then extends into "Makeup (outside of roleplay and theatre) == lying." - albeit to people who fully expect me to lie to them.

That's something I've been working to get over, which is part of where the conversation with Oxun came from.

--Ember--

Start with a skinny tie and before you know it you'll want to add a keyboard pattern.  And then you're lost.

Yeah that might be a risk if you were born in 1965, 1970.  Grandpap. 

Black slacks and ties were pretty much my standard apparel for work (and often for going out) back in the day, which I did not mind at all.  I found that when I took my lunch break at the corporate office park nearby, I could pretty much wander where I pleased and it would more or less be assumed that I had business there, that I belonged.  Maybe its because my job was not at all important and I wasn't very professional in any sense of the word that I enjoyed looking professional so much.  It would make sense, especially now that I have to be professional at work and feel no urge whatesoever to look or act the part.  Suddenly the notion that it was all "don't tell me what to do, maaaaaaan" has come over me, and I feel pretty silly.

Skinny ties.  Yes.  Especially for those of us who are rather narrow to begin with and enjoy jackets and shirts cut to be rather form fitting.  Don't like much color in them, though.  Have always prefered white shirts and black ties.   

I think so?

I'm not worried, for example, about presenting as too masculine when my body is female, because I am plenty comfortable with the masculine aspects of my identity. If anything, I'm more uncomfortable presenting as extremely girly, because I feel it misrepresents my personality.

Or to take it away from gender presentation, specifically, I'm comfortable going Goth or Faerie, but wouldn't be comfortable wearing Fetish styles, especially if they implied I was a Dom or a sub, unless I was roleplaying a character to whom it applied.

I don't mind formal clothing, but feel uncomfortable in a business suit.

I'm usually uncomfortable in ethnic clothing that does not apply to my own ethnicity, although that's a boundary I will cheerfully push if it doesn't seem rude to the source culture to do so, and as such I've gotten very comfortable with things like mehndi.

Does that follow?

--Ember--

I'm watching this curiously from the sidelines. I enjoy fashion and glamour (magical and conventional) immensely from the sidelines, but am very (perhaps overly) attuned to the policing of aspects of presentation, particularly along gendered lines. I'm hoping to glean some insight on nonlinear movement from you all.

It can certainly be used as a kind of hunting magic on its own, sort of paper dolling one's self into the desired outcome. Dressing for success impacting mind set and behavior, for example. Not to mention gear that is used completely for ritual transformation.

Most ritual has some sort of dress optional enhancements. High ritual vs. low often is signaled by elaborate dress vs. more casual. Though, it is also external in the sense that quality of presentation impacts those watching whatever kind of performance is underway.

A few years ago my sib (who is a trained costume/set designer) and I attended a very large spiritual conference that had many groups presenting ritual. The adults doing high ritual in school play level outfits did not make the same impact as the adults in carefully constructed (even often ultra simple) outfits. Part of this was the use of clothing and gear to communicate to the audience what the ritual was about. Because there was that use of the layer of presentation, our attention was amplified to the not-really-up-for-the-task quality selection going on.

XK said: The adults doing high ritual in school play level outfits did not make the same impact as the adults in carefully constructed (even often ultra simple) outfits.

Yes! I really dislike doing ritual in clothing that isn't made well. It doesn't have to be complicated, but it should be good quality cloth and durable construction, for goodness sakes! Well, except for when it shouldn't...

--Ember--

There needs to be design process for taking into consideration the role of the garb and the cost of the garb if it's a barrier to participants who are expected to kit themselves out.  One robe to rule them all over a closet full of cheapo.

I don't have a problem with not having garb at all, really. I'd rather see you in a decent pair of jeans and a t-shirt than in a badly made costume.

Obviously it adds a great deal to the presentation for everyone to have really nice garb. When we're doing a large, public Oracular Seidh session, Diana encourages everyone on the ritual team to wear old Norse garb, and often those who are more experienced provide clothing for the newbies.

Personally, I find hanging gowns and aprons really uncomfortable, and being physically uncomfortable is not conducive to the work, so I usually dress in a short tunic and skirt instead, and nobody says it's wrong.

--Ember--

Magic should (and perhaps can) only ever be performed in a bespoke tailored suit. 

What about other forms of dress-code? I'm thinking of the need to wear all white clothing in a lot of Afro-Diasporic contexts, for example.

--Ember--

I think I'd have a bit of trouble tromping through the woods, in the snow or mud, in a bespoke tailored suit...

(God, I sound like an old man! "In my day, we hiked deep into the forest to get to our secluded ritual sites, and we liked it!" Clearly not everybody does that. But reading this thread made me realize that my high black boots are "ritual garb," insofar as I only use them for hiking, and that hiking usually turns into magic.)

An adept can keep a suit clean and dry in all weather conditions and terrains. See the many episodes of The Avengers set in the country where Steed & Mrs Peel battle a range of surreal country perils while impeccably dressed. A forcefield of Chi is directed outward through the fabric. Basic principles.  

I'm a big fan of wearing whatever I happen to be wearing. But bare feet if I'm indoors and walking in any circles, etc. Possibly something I picked up from yoga -- makes me feel grounded.

Evan said: bare feet if I'm indoors and walking in any circles, etc. Possibly something I picked up from yoga -- makes me feel grounded.

Not just indoors! I'm barefoot anywhere I can get away with it if I'm doing "high-woo"!

GL, I love you, but you're not getting me into a suit.

--Ember--

Thanks for the tip, GL! I'll be sure to remember it next time I battle those surreal country perils. Or maybe I should just get a suit that I can wipe clean. Like our no-stain vinyl tablecloth at home, except, I hope, not floral.

Have people ever found that clothing used (exclusively) in ritual, becomes harder to use in every day life? I found it with a tunic that somebody made for me and that I have used in ritual only, which I was thinking of wearing to a re-enactment event. I just couldn't get myself to do it. Even though I am actively trying to break the barriers between the everyday and the ritual, some borders are very solid indeed. 

@Alwin, it depends on whether clothing is for ritual because it is associated with particular Powers, or if it's just mine, but I tend to wear it for ritual. I am actually trying to be better about clearly delineating special garb from regular clothes - apparently the opposite of your goal. Heh.

Currently I don't have a problem wearing, say, my Norse garb for reenactment rather than ritual, but I wouldn't wear Papa Ghede's hat for anything other than working with (usually carrying) Papa Ghede (well, and occasionally to transport it efficiently from car to building, but always loosely, and with the comment "This isn't an invitation, Papa, I'm just carrying it!")

I sometimes wear my "Brisingamen" necklace for priestess work that isn't specifically for Freyja, because She has indicated that it's my priestessing necklace, rather than Her necklace. Even so, I find it difficult to do, and tend to wear it only when the priestessing I'm doing is at least related to Freyja.

--Ember--

Mrs. Peel will always be the gold standard, yes.

I try to stay away from having must have tools for most of my work. I do have a few special items that the process of making was important for a specific ritual. I've got one tool I made over ten years ago that is the best made lovely thing I still haven't figured out WTF it is for yet ^_^ I pick it up and check with it and put it back down.

 I have ritual wear hand made from hammered bronze, bone, and my own hair. Bone is from ritual offerings of ox tail soup, hair is from the old days of sporting a mohawk, and the bronze was from a fuck ton of hours hammering one inch squares and hand linking them together. The finished outfit weighs quite a bit and was sort of a prom dress one use event I now keep around out of affection. Was worn for, as they say, a humdinger of a ritual.

For other gear of note, Samhain/Halloween often finds me making elaborate Significant Costumes and I will assemble per story telling specific kits, but keep nothing as a must have item.

XK said: I try to stay away from having must have tools for most of my work.

I differentiate between garb belonging to the Powers and tools for me, in that there's nothing stopping me from serving the Powers if I don't happen to have Their garb handy.

That said, I'm still trying to learn how to go ahead and use tools (in the sense that I understand "tools" that is, as distinct from props, regalia, etc.).

--Ember--

Maybes a spin off tool Discussion would be handy?

Just dropping by to drop off a hint.

I'm seeing quite a few e-how type articles telling you to have a matching pocket square and tie combination. Sweet Jesus don't. It's awful. It marks you as a n00b. You will look like you are on strictly come dancing or like you are doing fancy dress as a grown-up. It is one of the few hard and fast rules of menswear that cannot be broken without marking you as an amateur.

It's the opposite of power dressing. Wearing a matching pocket-square and tie shows you bought them together as part of a set, a marketing strategy menswear stores use to lower costs for the consumer. It's like writing DISCOUNT across your chest.  Probably not what you are aiming for.

This PSA on behalf of judgemental fashion gays who will mutter about you on the bus.

Oooh do you have guidelines about how to select complementary pocket squares and ties? Also, do you offer shopping services  on behalf of distinguished mans?

If you're unsure, white is never wrong. If you are going for a colour/pattern it can have some thematic link with either your tie or your shirt, but it should be noticeably different from both. It's meant to be an interesting juxtapose, not a close match.

It's also completely acceptable to just throw in something that matches none of your outfit. If you wear standard menswear  safe colours (blacks, greys and navies) then the pocket square is chance to prove you are still a person without the desperation of a novelty tie.  Also, mismatched pocket squares make you look completely unstudied and bad-ass.  "I'm so used to elaborate menswear I just threw this shit on".

But, and here's the problem, if you go for random bad-asserie and go mismatched, the uninitiated will think you've done it wrong. So you need to decide who you are trying to impress. The safest option, other than white, is a pocket-square which tones with, but doesn't match, your tie. That way everyone thinks you've passed by their understanding of the rules. Some peopletry and match a secondary colour, I just go with "that looks nice".


And I would love to be a personal shopper, but sadly, I do not offer my services to distinguished mans. If any gentlemen on here want to give me their credit card details I can get right on that.

If I could afford a personal shopper you would be my absolute 1st choice.

Hmm.

I need to revamp my wardrobe, but I have very little need for pocket squares.

Wow, I really didn't know that. I'm so used to high formal where the vest, tie, and kerchief do match on purpose, for things like weddings....

-E-

That would be the exception. If you are the groom or a grooms-man at a wedding, then matching silk all the way.

But for other guests, yeah, keep it mismatched. Otherwise you will look like you've just come from a different wedding.

RELEVANT

ahem.

HOT DAMN.

DAT FAIRISLE.
:E

Princess said: But for other guests, yeah, keep it mismatched. Otherwise you will look like you've just come from a different wedding.

Fascinating! And here I'm used to the kind of wedding where the bride and groom announce their colors so the rest of the guests can choose to dress accordingly if they like! (Pagans and costumers have funky weddings...) For that matter, most of the dress-for-it rituals I'm used to have explicit color coding, as do many of the costuming contexts.

I find it hard to tell the difference between costuming and just wearing different clothing than one usually would...

-E-

Princess said: DAT FAIRISLE.

Are you referring to the knitwear? Because if so, I must acknowledge the purity of your focus.

Time for new glasses.

For years I wore barely-visible bronze wire rimless things (Kazuo Kawasaki), but for the last few years I've worn semi-retro black horn rim-looking things (Oga).

So -- what sort of thing should I get that will look hip and attractive but not too far-out for a (fairly progressive) corporate workplace and the occasional courtroom?  Bonus points if it will work well with a big ol' bald oval-shaped head.  (Think Terry O'Quinn.)